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WARM OR COOL? Ultramarine Blue vs Thalo Blue ...


Many years ago (we won't say exactly HOW many, but it's been a good long while) I set out on what has become a lifelong journey of exploring colour theory. As a young adult I exhausted every book on the subject at the local libraries wherever I lived, and I never stopped. I guess you could say it's been a never-ending passion, this thirst for colour knowledge. Nowadays of course, my library of choice is Google, and there are endless numbers of articles out there on various theories about how colour 'works'. And there are discrepancies out there too. Lots of them.

One thing I've been coming across lately, and I can't really say for sure just when I first noticed this, are articles from various sources which state that Ultramarine Blue is a warm blue, while Thalo Blue is a cool blue.

This flies in the face of what I studied about colour temperature 'way back when'. I learned years ago that Ultramarine is cool, while Thalo is warm. When did this shift in viewpoint 'out there' occur? And why?


Those are the questions I've been pondering for the past few weeks, while I was busy updating notes for a workshop I was teaching on Basic Colour Theory. I'm the type of person who just “has to know”, and so I set about to try and figure out just where this shift may have stemmed from. And I think I now may have the answer.

 

To determine Colour Temperature, most artists refer to the well-known Colour Wheel, which arranges colours in a circle. We're all familiar with the 3 Primaries (R – Y – B) spaced at equal distances around the wheel, with Secondaries (O – G – V) positioned between them, and so on. Various versions of this basic colour wheel are commonly used by the majority of artists nowadays, and I believe this just might be where the confusion may have arisen over the relative temperatures of Ultramarine Blue and Thalo Blue.

The colours on the Red-orange-yellow side of the colour wheel are classed as Warm colours, while those on the violet – blue – green side are classed as Cool colours. That division is widely accepted, and is based in part on psychological connections our brains make when viewing certain colours. Red, orange and yellow are all seen as 'fire' colours, and our brains interpret them as warm. Violet and blue suggest icy shadows on snow, while green suggests the cool grass beneath our feet on a hot summer day. Seems straightforward enough, right? There's a lot more to it than that, of course, but this division of warm and cool is accepted as accurate.

When we compare two different blues, in this case Ultramarine Blue and Thalo Blue, with the generic blue of the colour wheel, we can see that Ultramarine leans slightly toward the violet side of Blue, while Thalo leans toward the green side of Blue. So that places Ultramarine closer to Violet, while Thalo is closer to Green.


On this `standard` colour wheel, Violet is positioned next to Red, and Red is in the Warm zone. Therefore, if we use the colour wheel as our only reference, we might conclude that a Blue which is closer to Violet is also closer to Red, and therefore is warmer than a Blue which is closer to Green, which is further away from Red. So we might surmise from this that Thalo Blue is cooler than Ultramarine. This, I believe, is what a lot of people are doing.

 

 

However, let`s take a closer look at this colour wheel. Where does it come from?


To fully understand the way the Colour Wheel 'works', we first need to take a look at the Colour Spectrum. What is this?

 

White light is comprised of different individual colour wavelengths, which our eyes and brains interpret as different colours. When this white light is broken down into its separate colour bands, as it is in a rainbow, we can see the different colours arranged in order of their wavelengths.


The colours in this simplified version of the Spectrum are arranged according to their relative wavelengths, with Red having the longest and Violet the shortest. Colour Temperature applies to this spectrum as well, with the colours on the Red end being warm, while those on the Violet end being cool. This is based on science, with the colours arranged according to measureable differences.


Now, let's bend the ends of the spectrum upwards (hypothetically of course), until the two ends join together. This forms a circle, which is what we call the Colour Wheel.

The point where Red meets Violet on the wheel actually indicates where the two ends of the spectrum meet.

Violet is not 'warm', even though it sits beside Red on the wheel - it is still the coolest colour in the spectrum, while Red is still the warmest colour. Those properties don't change simply because we've turned the Spectrum bar into a circle, or a wheel.


This appears to be where the notion arises that Ultramarine Blue is warm, while Thalo Blue is cool. If we use just the colour wheel, without considering its origins and underlying meanings, that would be the logical conclusion.

 

* * *

Now let's look just at the cool end of the spectrum - from Green through Blue to Violet.


We can see that Blue is situated between Green on the left, and Violet on the right. From the basic spectrum we learned that Violet is the coolest colour and Red is the warmest. Therefore, since Green is closer to the Red end than Blue is, then Green would be considered warmer than Blue. Conversely, Violet would be considered cooler than Blue.

 

Next, let's compare Ultramarine Blue and Thalo Blue with this portion of the spectrum.

First we will see that Thalo Blue has slight leanings toward Green, while Ultramarine Blue has slight leanings toward Violet.

 

Therefore Thalo would be located on the 'green end of blue', while Ultramarine would be located on the 'violet end of blue'.


Continuing on this line of logic, which is based on scientifically measurable properties, we can see that Ultramarine is closer to Violet, while Thalo Blue is closer to Green.

 

Violet is cooler than Green.

 

Therefore it follows that Ultramarine Blue is cooler than Thalo Blue.

 

* * *

In summary, then - for accurate colour temperature comparisons, it's essential to go back to the source - the Colour Spectrum. That will give us the truest reference.

 

* * * * *

(Sharon Hicks is an artist who resides in Sackville NB. www.sharonhicksfineart.com )

 

86 Responses to WARM OR COOL? Ultramarine Blue vs Thalo Blue ...

KCooper
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Sharon

What an interesting article!

One thing that struck me right away, was the appearance of your two color samples at the beginning of the article.

As near as I can tell from "computer screen samples" they are very close in value, and yet which one advances (characteristic of warm) and which one recedes (cool characteristic)?

Wow, what we know to be technically true, and yet what the eye perceives - color is a tricky game to play!

KC

Sharon Hicks
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Hi Karen ... good observation - it's difficult to portray the colours 'exactly' on the screen ... I actually wrestled with that problem for quite awhile - scanning and re-scanning my samples until I had it as close as I could make it appear to the real thing. But even at that, the colours in the samples shown are not really 'true', and it will of course vary even further on readers' monitors - there are so many different degrees of colour resolution out there when it comes to computer screens.

The best source of course is for each person to lay out their own colours, in the flesh so to speak, and examine them with a critical eye. That's what I'm always encouraging artists to do when I teach classes on anything to do with colour. I've been making colour charts and studying 'real' colours for as far back as I can remember, and I haven't stopped yet - there's always something more to check into ...

btw - in the real samples of Ultramarine and Thalo, it becomes quite obvious that Thalo advances and Ultramarine recedes ...

cheers, and thanks for commenting :)



David Briggs
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The convention regarding violet as warmer than blue is actually the older of the two, but both go back a long way (early 19th century vs early 20th century). The opposing argument is that warm/cool is a psychological association of hue perceptions, not physical wavelengths, and violet hue perceptions contain a component of redness. Historically there have been a lot of different conventions on which hues are warm, cool or neither, and I don't think it's really possible to say that any one of them is "truest". However I'd be very interested to know where you learnt the "violet=coolest" theory, and anywhere else that you know it is being or has been taught.



vintagescissors
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Sharon,

My two-cents worth:

Your conclusion that Thalo Blue is warmer is likely correct, but I would you a different way to reach that conclusion.

Although your straight-line spectrum theory would appear to work for blues, zooming out into the big-picture, using that logic would also imply that more 'fiery' colours like Vermillion, Orange-Reds and Yellow are cooler than 'true' reds like Crimson Alizarin.

---

My understanding of colour is two-fold; colours in the visible-light spectrum are different in nature to pigment-based colour (as in when you paint) in the following ways:

- The primary colours of visible light are comprised of Red, Green and Blue, while the counterpart for pigment is Magenta, Yellow and Cyan.

- The primary colours of visible light total-up into white light, while the same for pigment would give a dirty brown, requiring that true blacks and grey be a separate pigment.

- Magenta does not naturally occur in visible light (it has to be either reflected off magenta pigment or artificially generated on-screen), and 'violet' in the light spectrum is not the same as 'violet' or purple in pigment because the former is actually reaching the edge of visibility to the human eye (ultraviolet), while the latter naturally starts to re-integrate itself into red.

---

One other factor to consider in 'warm' vs 'cool' values is 'intrinsic' brightness (although it has less to do with light and more with how the human eye perceives light). You have mentioned this in an earlier comment about colours that 'advance' and 'recede'. Green, for example, has a higher 'intrinsic' brightness than Blue, thus when comparing Green and Blue colours of equal value, Green tends to 'glow' or 'advance' more naturally - this would be the basis by which I conclude that Thalo blue is warmer.

Not to mention that that Green is so close to Yellow, which has the highest 'intrinsic' brightness of all, and by all accounts is functionally the 'warmest', even though it is obviously far-away from red! Certainly, a mere photo of the golden sun-scorched sand of the Sahara can be said to appear warmer than the reddest apple, haha...

---

I would also mention that dealing with Blue values is a unique problem. No one has trouble deciding that Crimson or Burgundy is cooler than Vermillion Red; no one argues that Lime Green is warmer than Teal, but every argues when it comes to blue, and in reality this is because the human eye simply cannot understand blue quite as well. The human eye has evolved to focus more on red and green for survival reasons - red indicates ripe fruit or blood, while green indicates healthy foliage or toxic animals. From a survival standpoint, blue is frankly a bit useless and at best esoteric (hence the spiritual connotations it is often linked to).

Fun digression: The naming of colours in the evolution of a cultures language also reflects this set of priorities: After 'light' and 'dark', Red is one of the first colours which are named, whereas Greens and Blues are among the last, with Purple waaaaay at the back. In fact, some cultures today still do not have separate terms for blue and green today. The Chinese language, for example, defined its 'Green' from its 'Blue' with separate words relatively late in its civilization, and the original umbrella term is still used today, albeit ambiguously and often loosely translated into to 'Azure' or even simply 'Fresh Colour'.

---

Your plight with explaining Ultramarine as cooler online is that by scanning your pigment, you are essentially trying to convert your pigment-based colour into light-based colour on a screen, and *everything* on a screen is produced by shining light out of it, so you have a field-day going out of your way to try and compensate for this, nevermind the additional issue of variability in colour display across screens!

I am a jeweller by profession and I witness a similar struggle with retailers selling blue sapphire and blue gemstone jewellery online in particular, compared to other things like ruby. Customers are almost always disappointed with the physical turnout because the computer interprets sapphire's deep blue colouring as a superlative of its light-based blue, and ramps it up for all its worth!

If you have Adobe-Photoshop or similar (I use a free software called Gimp which is almost exactly the same), you can manually reduce the brightness to better match.

Sharon Hicks
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vintage scissors - I really appreciate your taking the time to provide the in-depth colour notes ... these various findings are all familiar to me, as I have spent quite a bit of time investigating various different approaches to colour. In the classes I teach, however, I find that the simpler I can explain a concept, the more likely the class participants will be to put it into use. I find that by using the spectrum analogy it gets the point across quite well, without having to go into the finer points of light-vs-pigment, comparative vibrancies, etc. It's kind of the K.I.S.S. principle for teaching colour to those who want a simple quick lesson. I must say I really enjoyed your ramble though - right up my alley :)

vintagescissors
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Sharon,

Hahaha, yes, I did go on a roll there (they happen more frequently and go on for longer now that I am older)!

Yes I agree that K.I.S.S. is best for a pragmatic, results-driven approach, especially for learners. If they are interested enough then it is up to them to delve further into theory on their own...

Victor LaPorte
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I have been struggling with this very question related to developing a color pallet for oil painting.

This is important to me because Im trying to mix my own secondary colors from 6 primary colors. 3 warm and 3 cool of each primary.

The more important detail I'm trying to clarify is you can be unknowingly adding a third color to a mix when your intent is to only be mixing two colors. The result is a duller mixed color. For example ultramarine has a bit of red in it. So if I use it with yellow like lemon yellow it will make a duller green than if I had mixed it with thalo blue.

All of this makes my head hurt. The more I think I know the less I know:)

Sharon Hicks
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Hi Victor ... I feel your pain LOL ... sorting out warm and cool colours, and colour mixing in general, can give one a gigantic headache.

Fact is, very few pigments would be what you could call 'pure' colours ... by having a warm and cool version of each primary, we can work around that tendency.

To get a 'good' green, you would select a yellow which is already on the greeish side, and a blue which is already on the greenish side. If you mix Lemon Yellow and Thalo Blue, for example, it will give you a 'truer' green than if you use an orangey yellow, or a purplish blue.

Mind you, those other combinations can also produce some really interesting greens. With just 2 blues (one warm, one cool) and 2 yellows (one warm, one cool), you can mix a wide range of interesting green tones. Mix each of the yellows with each of the blues, in different strengths - ie: more yellow and less blue, more blue and less yellow ... etc ...

Then you can do the same exercise with warm and cool red + warm and cool blue, and then of course warm and cool red + warm and cool yellow ... the possibilities are endless.

THEN you can start experimenting with mixing some of the secondary colours together, to get a wide array of greys and browns ... it's a fascinating topic which you can play with forever.

Have fun with it :)
cheers
Sharon

CheerfulMonk
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I had a lot of problem with this. Ultramarine looked cooler than cobalt blue or phthalo blue to my eyes and I was reading the opposite in a lot of places. Finally I stopped thinking in terms of warmth or coolness and just looked to see if the blue was closer to green or violet. That's all I needed for help in mixing vibrant colors and in choosing which colors to harmonize or contrast. See Linda Kemp, Simplifying Color and Design, pages 40-445.

Sharon Hicks
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Cheerful Monk - sounds like surrendering to your instinct was the best way to go. I think we have an 'innate' sense of colour. Choosing which blue is closer to green or closer to violet is really an instinctive use of the colour spectrum, I would say. Basing colour decisions on just the colour wheel can be deceiving, UNLESS one understands where the colour wheel comes from. Once you can visualize the colours in a straight line spectrum, it is far easier to determine relative coolness and warmth of any colour pair. Thanks for posting.
cheers
Sharon

Robert Jones
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I don't really agree with this, and if it shows anything it may be that the temperature we apply to colours is misleading in itself. Pthalocyanine blue is certainly a very strong colour, and one that doesn't obviously recede - it would therefore not meet all the criteria for 'cool' colours. On the other hand, straight Pthalo Blue contains no red, whereas Ultramarine does: it's not that Ultramarine is near Violet; it actually carries a proportion of red in its makeup. That's what makes it a relatively warm colour, but I don't think much of this makes sense unless you judge a colour in relation to others when you're actually painting with them, which we more or less do by instinct (as you say). The problem with your approach is that when it comes to mixing, it runs into problems - eg, no colour is going to be warmed by the addition of Pthalo Blue; quite the reverse. Violet, similarly, is only cool in relation to, eg, Vermilion. Lay it alongside Terre Verte and then tell me which is the warmer.

I respect the way you've worked this out, but it doesn't work for me.

David Briggs
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Very good point, Robert. Not only does the colour violet contain a component of red perceptually - violet and violet-blue pigments do not just reflect the wavelengths seen as those colours, but have a peak in the red part of the spectrum as well, which may be why this argument based on the spectrum is very uncommon (though not unprecedented). More common arguments for the minority position (i.e. that violet/blue-violet is coolest) are based on the colour wheel and the assumptions that yellow or orange-yellow is the warmest colour and that red is neither warm nor cool.

joan forman
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Excellent explanation... love your very clear visuals. I'm a retired teacher not art. I think you are a great teacher. :-)

Gina
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People -- experts, supposedly, make such contradictory statements about this colour temperature thing! Today on a daytime show where they did a room makeover, the decorator said green a warm colour. No wonder newbies like me get confused!

I'm so glad you agree with me about ultramarine being a cool colour! I never gave it a second thought, it seemed so logical to me because in observing mountains I noticed that the ones far away are always violet, and cool colours being the ones that are supposed to recede, I have always assumed that violet was cool just because, well, it FEELS cold. And since ultramarine is right next to violet, then it just follows that it's cool. But I was not aware that there is a controversy about this, until I started following a discussion in the QandA section of an online art class that I'm taking right now. The instructor is adamant that ultramarine is a warm blue no matter what anybody says! I found your site by googling for another opinion, and here I am!

To me, Thalo blue is warmer than Ultramarine, so I agree with you there too.

By the way, I love your coloured pencil work!



Robert Jones
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Just to quote from a rather elderly Winsor and Newton pamphlet, Colour Mixes and Notes: "..Temperature, i.e. the degree of warmth or coldness from an aesthetic point of view. The distinction between 'warm' and 'cold' colours is purely artistic and has no physical basis."

So you might come to one conclusion from looking at a conventional colour wheel; another from actually going out in the field and looking; and another from thinking of colours in terms of the proportion of other colours they carry.

Which of these is right for you is subjective: and it doesn't matter too much if you're using pure - well, unmixed - colours. It does matter though if you're using the principle of warm and cool to inform your colour mixing - to stick to examples given, if you were to use Pthalo Blue as a warm blue, and you sought to mix a warm green, you might mix it with Cadmium Yellow (which is taken to be warm); try it and see what you think. Now try mixing what most teachers et al mean by a warm blue, i.e. Ultramarine, with Cadmium Yellow. Which of these comes nearer to your idea of warm green (not the same as bright green)?

There are numerous games you can play with this; the standard colour wheel is not, I would suggest, of any help at all in actually mixing colours; it only comes into its own when assessing which colours to place against each other, and even then it's on a spectrum, which isn't especially useful in practical terms.

For more thinking on this (which isn't to say you'll agree with it) take a look at the Michael Willcox School of Colour website; it does at least take us away from the purely subjective, and injects a bit of science into colour theory.

Without a bit of the science at least, there is going to be confusion about terms - your warm colour might be my bright or strong one (especially in the case of Pthalo Blue)- your cool colour might be my idea of neutral, or desaturated. E.g. how would you describe Burnt Umber? I'd say it was a warm colour, but it's certainly not a bright one.

I can't say I think too much about warm and cool while painting, but I do think about the amount of red (for instance) a colour carries when mixing: which is why if, for example, I want a clean violet I wouldn't try mixing it with Cadmium Red and Pthalo Blue - too much yellow in the Cad Red, too little red in the Pthalo Blue.

Too much theory drives some people mad - it interests me. But if it bores you to distraction, to be honest I'd just ignore it - use colour as you see it, and if that makes mixing a problem, either do less of it and employ single colours out of the tube, or learn what mixes work for you and remember them, or make a colour chart of those you need most often.

Gina
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It may be subjective, my problem is that I have to present an assignment that follows the instructor's own rule, and she won't accept any disagreement.

Sharon Hicks
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Gina ... I think we've all come across instructors from time to time who are very narrow in their approach and will not even listen to any alternate points of view. I guess the thing to remember is that this is 'her/his class', so it's 'her/his' rules - for that class. Don't feel that by following the instructions 'to the letter' for the classwork that you are committed to that methodology or viewpoint for all of your work. Take what you can learn from the class, and then expand on it, on your own time. :)

Gina
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Good advice, Sharon, thanks!

Robert Jones
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Gina, if you have to present an assignment, that's one thing. How you choose to paint is another.

You know your instructor's opinion (which, so far as you've detailed it, is in accord with generally accepted theories) and while you may think it slightly hypocritical to accept it in your assignment when you don't in reality, my question would be do you want the assignment to be accepted or not? If you do, then you're going to have to conform.

I don't know if you're seeking a qualification or not (and for what they're worth, which isn't much) but if you are it's unfortunately true that you don't get these things by bucking the trend.

I don't conform, by the way! But then, I don't take exams or have to do assignments.

David Briggs
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It isn't being narrow to define your terms, all that matters is that when the teacher says "warm blue", a quarter of the class doesn't misunderstand.
This discussion is a great argument by the way for just saying reddish blue or greenish blue.

Joan
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Three cheers to David Briggs. Now I know the reason my teachers specify Phathalo Blue green shade.

Emiliya Lane
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Sharon and Gina - Yes, you are right 100 percent, and it's quite wild to me, that there is even a discussion about coolness of Phthalo - It has YELLOW in it! HELLOOOO . Every color has a second color in it , and base on relativity you can immediately sensed -if it's cool or warm - Like lemon yellow is cooler then cad yellow light, as lemon little bit bluer and cad has red in it....Cad red light is warmer then alizarin because has more yellow versus alizarin has blue in it ..ultramarine is cooler then phthalo because it has red versus yellow in Phthalo . Just ad some white for God sake, and you will see immediately how ultramarine is ice cool, and pthalo is warm!!!!

Hua Nian
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Very interesting posts! I have enjoyed so much and have learned a lot from argument of both sides. If it is hard to decide which side to take, why don't we visit their artwork on their websites - to see the samples of the two different approaches and then make up our own minds? :)

David Briggs
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Emilya, by your criteria cadmium orange is warmer than cadmium red. That agrees with the majority position, but it's the opposite of what Sharon is saying.

Hua Nan, these aren't really three different approaches, just different terminologies, so I don't think looking at people's paintings will resolve much, but anyway here are a few of mine:
https://sites.google.com/site/djcbriggs/oilpaintings

For the record, my "side" is that colours are created by the human visual system and are not actually "in" the spectrum. Most commonly warmth is associated with both redness and yellowness, but for substantial minorities it is associated with just redness or just yellowness. If it's impossible to come up with an agreed definition, perhaps it's best to drop the idea as a way of describing hue, and just say reddish blue vs greenish blue, etc.

Emiliya Lane
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Hi David, Yes, Orange is warmer then red, of course- it has yellow in it and what can be warmer then yellow? But I actually 100 percent agree with you on definition of redness and yellowness - For the first time it makes total sense to me. Love love your work!
And here is mine - http://artlanegallery.com/workszoom/1243773.
Cheers :)

David Briggs
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Thanks very much Emilya, and the same to you. Your love of colour and light really shows!

Natalie
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I'm not an expert in color by any means, I actually ended up here because I was trying to determine whether or not there is such a thing as "warm blue" or not. My home is decorated in warm, earthy colors and I would like to add some blue. I really enjoyed your article, Sharon, and it makes complete sense to me. Looking at the Thalo and Ultramarine blues, even as a color simpleton, I would call the former warm and the latter cool...that just feels obvious and "right" to me. And the home decorations I've seen with more natural colors do tend to include blues with less red or purple. I just didn't want to make a mistake and violate some color law by grouping the wrong ones together, so was seeking confirmation of my innate sense of warmth versus coolness. Thanks for your discussion of this, it helped me a lot.

Sharon Hicks
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wow ... so many comments, so many interesting perspectives !! As the latest commenter Natalie points out, the decorating business has it figured out - blues which are included in 'warm' decorating palettes are teals and turquoises, in large part - they are all 'greenish-blues', and are considered to be warm. By contrast, if you're decorating in cool tones, then they would include violet-blues, and cornflower blues, which are considered to be cool blues. You can also check out the theory of colours which are compatible with different skin tones ... those of us with 'cool' colouring can best wear the violet-blues and look slightly 'ill' when wearing the warmer blues like teal. Conversely, those with warmer skin tones will look better when wearing the warm blues (teal, etc) ... far better than when wearing the cool blues (periwinkle, etc).


Jane Blundell
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Interesting article Sharon, but as another with a life-long passion for colour, I have to disagree with your idea that Ultramarine is cool and phthalo blue warm, as from a practical point of view - working with paint and colours, it simply doesn't work that way.
All colours are relative. We might think that blues are all cool compared with reds, for example, but it is possible to make an intense blue come forward and a dull red recede in relation to eachother. There are two issues to look at - temperature, which is conventionally whether a colour appears to advance or recede, and intensity - how bright it is.
Your colour spectrum shows very clearly that phthalo blue is more intense than ultramarine. With a yellow at the top of the wheel as the brightest, most reflective colour, purple is at the bottom as the least reflective. By that measure phthalo blue is closer to yellow and is more intense/bright. Ultramarine is closer to purple so less intense - it reflects less light.
But to consider warmth Orange should be the warmest colour - have you ever seen a cool orange? There are warm and cool reds, warm and cool yellows, but a reduced orange or burnt sienna is still warm - and when you tip the wheel around so that orange is on top, phthalo blue drops to the bottom as the coldest colour. To warm a blue we add red. To cool a blue we add yellow. To make a blue come forward we use cobalt or ultramarine, to make it recede we use Prussian or phthalo or cerulean. So while the spectrum explains the intensity it doesn't equate with relative warmth. I certainly agree that phthalo is brighter though. :-)

Sharon Hicks
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Thank you for your comments ... I appreciate your input. I can see how you have arrived at your observations, though they don't appear to be supported by much else than manipulating the colour wheel.

I question your statement that: "To make a blue come forward we use cobalt or ultramarine, to make it recede we use Prussian or phthalo or cerulean." ... in practice, if you add Prussian or phthalo to a neutral blue, it is going to make it appear to advance, so it looks 'closer'. By contrast, if you add cobalt or ultramarine to a blue it will appear to recede, so it looks 'further away'.

This is of course also based on intensity - I suggest you might want to take a puddle of thalo blue or cerulean blue, and a puddle of cobalt or ultramarine ... add white to each to make them both pastel ... then observe which one appears to be closer.

Check out the sky on a clear day - the blue at the 'top' of the sky is generally more intense than the blue at the 'bottom' of the sky ... You've already stated that Thalo is 'more intense', while Ultramarine is 'less intense' ... the 'top' of the sky is actually closer to us, being directly overhead, while the 'bottom' of the sky is much further away, being at the far edge of the arc which is the sky over us. Therefore the more intense blue looks to be closer to us, while the less intense one looks to be further away. Or, to insert the colours themselves - Thalo looks closer, while Ultramarine looks further away.

'Common knowledge' among artists is that 'cool colours recede'. Ultramarine 'recedes' and thalo 'advances' if they are placed next to each other.

I suspect that part of the 'difficulty' surrounding this question is the fact that different people see colours in different ways. Also, many artists have only ever learned to use a colour wheel, without learning the background information as to how and why it works, and its strengths AND shortcomings.


cheers, Sharon


Lily
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Hi Sharon, I have always believed Thalo Blue to be warmer than Ultramarine, but when I recently returned to Uni to complete my bachelor I attended Design 101 only to be told the opposite.
This confused me, when I started fine arts many years ago we were taught that the "yellow in the colour" would indicate its warmth. Full stop. I found your page on google when I decided to research this and would like to say THANK YOU for explaining it so succinctly.
Lily

Sharon Hicks
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Hello Lily ... so glad you found my post - I pondered the question for quite awhile, since I was finding so many 'newer' references which said just the opposite of what I had learned so many years ago. Like I said in my notes, I'm quite sure s lot of the discrepencies have to do with the fact that many people only 'study' the colour wheel, with no appreciation for the background information ... good luck on finishing your degree. Cheers ... Sharon

Ruth Griffin
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Thank you SO much Sharon.
Warm v Cool colours is something I have been pondering for years and your article has been really helpful.
Instinctively I have always felt that Phtalo Blue is warmer than Ultramarine, but as a 'learner' I have been listening to my 'teachers' (mainly google !!!) who say the opposite.
Your explanation of the colour spectrum makes perfect sense to me and will enable me in future to make up my own mind rather than battling through such conflicting advice.
I can't tell you how relieved I feel !!
Ruth Griffin

Donna shortt
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I agree! So thanks so much for the time you spent explaining what so many of us believe about warm and cool blues!

Donna shortt
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Now what do you think about cobalt blue? Warm or cool?

Sharon Hicks
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Donna ... thanks for your comments ...

As for Cobalt blue, I've always considered it to be a cool blue, though a tad warmer than Ultramarine ... I guess you could call it a 'mid-range' blue - warmer than Ultramarine yet cooler than Pthalo ...

frank malowany
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I agree that labeling Ultramarine blue has been more common as a warm color. I also was taught a long tome ago that the opposite was true.
I saw an interesting article in Emptyeasel.com (Tips for correctly mixing color). This made a whole lot of sense leaving the warm/cold debate out of the equation. Was very helpful to me.

Thanks for your insights. This is the hardest part of painting for everyone, especially someone like me, getting back into painting after 30 years!

dianne
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Thank you very much for this evaluation. i agree with you completely but have had to fight against the norm for this period of time, re:the last 30 years. i will use your explanation in my classes

Elizabeth San Miguel
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Thank you so much. In my color theory classes, my painting teachers explain thalo and UM in a way that makes no sense. This scientific explanation holds true irrespective of individual perception of color temp. Your text actually offers a way to explain both: on the one hand science and on the other individal perception, which - surprise, surprise - does not need to comply with science. Beautiful!

Sharon Hicks
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Diane and Elizabeth ... thanks for your comments, I appreciate your insight. I'm hearing this from so many different sources - that 'modern' colour theory is using just the colour wheel approach, without any thought to just where and how the colour wheel originated in the first place. Without that background information it is apparently quite easy to fall into the trap of seeing purple as being "between blue and red", and thus arrive at the questionable conclusion that since Ultramarine is a purplish-blue, it must 'contain red' - and thus it becomes labelled as a 'warm blue'.

It's only by understanding how the purple and red on the colour wheel are actually at opposite ends of the spectrum, that one can correctly interpret the actual story of Ultramarine blue.

I shudder to think that a whole generation of art teachers are seemingly missing this one basic piece of the colour puzzle. This misinformation will only continue to perpetuate itself ad infinitum.

David Briggs
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Modern colour theory doesn't really enter into it, as it would tend to avoid pointless confusion by just saying reddish-blue or greenish blue. This disputation is between two sects of traditional colour theory. Your most influential opponent is Johannes Itten, who certainly knew about the spectrum but regarded the coolest and warmest colours as blue-green and red-orange respectively (The Art of Colour, 1961, p. 64). I'm happy to shudder with you at Itten's self-perpetuating influence on a whole generation of art teachers!

Sharon Hicks
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Hi David ... doing a lot of shuddering these days, as I think more and more about this subject!! ... the very fact that there are so many people *out there* who are quite willing to accept such a singular way of interpreting colour, without question or seeking any other sources of information on the topic, is in itself enough to make me shudder.

In the case of the widespread influence of Itten, I guess it's a case of "it's not what you know, it's who you know". I suspect he came along at just the right time to capture the attention of a growing number of people looking for a 'quick easy answer' without having to do any research themselves.

I was still quite young at that time, but I didn't fall into that category - I have always had the 'thirst' to check out as many widely divergent viewpoints as I could find, and then gradually zeroed in on the one(s) that made the most sense in a scientific as well as practical way. Guess I should have been born a century ago LOL ...

Holly
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It's actually ROYBGIV. You left out the Indigo.

Great article! Even famous teachers get it wrong as I've discovered!

Holly
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Correction sorry!
ROYGBIV :)

Sharon Hicks
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Hi Holly ... you're right of course, about the Indigo ... I did leave it out, to simplify matters;) ...
The teachers you mentioned would be those who merely pass on what they themselves have been taught, rather than do their own research and pass on what they have discovered. We need more of the latter variety. :)

Holly
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So true! Thanks Sharon :)

Jane Blundell
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I've tried to see this your way but it just doesn't work for me. So I'll stick with the majority of artists who understand ultramarine as warm, and who recognise that there are warm purples and cool greens, and that the warm/cool axis is not where you have it - between red and purple, but further into the purple and cutting into the yellow since there are cool yellows and warm purples.

So perhaps that is the explanation Sharon - if you believe as you stated that 'green is warm and purple is cool', which I would dispute, (and which is contrary to the way you have divided your colour wheel), then you would see ultramarine as cool. But where does that assumption come from? Both purple and green are made up of a mix of warm and cool colours so neither are inherently either warm or cool. A blue-green is cool, a yellow- green is warm. A red-purple is warm, a blue-purple is cool. It's all relative. Orange, or course, is made up of only warm colours so is always warm, even when a blue is added to neutralise it to burnt sienna or burnt umber hues.

As David said earlier, perhaps avoiding cool and warm terms causes less confusion.







David Briggs
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Hi Jane, I don't think I've met you, but did I see somewhere that you are also based in Sydney?? If so you might be interested in this event we are having later this month. Anyway, hope you and any other colour fans enjoy our little video for it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-KgICbe4hk

Beverly
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Thank you so much for this easy to read and understand artical. Last week my watercolor teacher had us do the double color wheel, cool on the onside and warm in the middle, I just couldn't wrap my head around the blues at all. You've helped me so much.

Vicki Wood
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Hi - this is a great article and the the reasoning is well supported. That said, for me, ultramarine is warm, and thalo is cool.

Both positions are dependent on whether red or yellow is selected as the warmest colour. Many select red as the warmest, and therefore see ultramarine as warmer. Others classify yellow as warmest. Some select orange.

We're really talking about paint, not light. And paint does not behave the same as light. So appealing to the wavelengths of light spectrum doesn't settle completely the matter. There are other physical attributes associated with paint that also affect colour perception.

For anyone who is interested, Handprint also has an excellentl in depth article on this topic: http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color12. He concludes that there is no 'correct' warmest or coolest colour - they reflect two different traditions, both with merit.

Again - very intersting article!

Dan White
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I'm not sure you can use wavelengths of light and compare that to a mixing chart. After all, if you mix all the colors in visible light you get white light. If you mix all the colors in the color wheel together as paint, you get a mess. I find the discussions of warm and cool colors interesting, but trying to apply them to painting often does not translate as you might think. Some of the most pleasing greens are made by mixing a cool blue with a warm yellow and visa versa. They look different than greens made from mixing two warms or two cools together, but not less pleasing to me.

Heidi
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I agree with you completely, and could never figure out why some say ultramarine is warm while cerulean or pthalo is definitely warmer with all that yellow.

George
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A good indication that also supports your belief that Pthalo is cool is that it mixes an emerald green. Ultrmarine Blue mixes a "dirtier" olive green as it has more red (which pushes it towards brown!).

CHEERS

Sharon Hicks
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George - actually, my presentation depicts phalo as warm, and ultramarine as cool. Mixing greens is not only dependent upon the blue you use - the Yellow pigment used is at least as important as the blue. Mixing any blue with Lemon yellow is going to produce a cooler green than mixing any blue with Cadmium Yellow Medium, for example. Try mixing Ultramarine blue with Lemon Yellow, and compare that with Phtalo blue mixed with Cadmium Yellow Medium ... your results will be quite different than mixing them the other way around. :)

JAYAN
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Nice and informative article. Thanks Sharon.

Barbara A. Scheihing
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Thank you thank you thank you Sharon. I have been trying to convince people of this for years! My theory is that even when looking at a color like Alizarin Crimson, which to me is closely related to Ultramarine Blue in that it is more closer to violet, which is cooler. Alizarin crimson is therefore a cooler red. Wouldn't that naturally make ultramarine a cooler blue? The more yellow reds are naturally warmer, so, therefore the more blues with more yellow tendencies will also be warmer....just makes good sense to me. Not only that, visually ultramarine just LOOKS cooler to me than say, cerulean for instance....same as phthalo blue. Whew....I can lay this one to rest! I like your reasoning better though of the straight line color spectrum and not the wheel. Good work and thanks again!!!!

Emma Johnson
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Hello Sharon,
I am a UK-based artist, and I have always thought ultramarine blue was more cool than warm. I am glad my eyes don't deceive me ;) Thanks for the article.

Michelle Osborne
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My comment is simple. My gut tells me that ultramarine blue is cooler. That's what I trust. :)

Thanks for all the information also
Michelle

Gregory Perkins
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In the wavelength spectrum there is the color Indigo between blue and violet. Indigo is a Navy Blue or almost a real blackish blue with no hint of red in it at all. Violet definiely has some red. I think many violets can be considered warm while on the other side some yellowish greens such as ochre can almost be considered cool even though they have some yellow in them. Is this relevant to your discussion. It seems like there might be a disconnect in making the wavelength spectrum a circle because somewhere between blue and red the colors fade to black which is sort of a total lack of white (or visible light).

Anita Davis
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I couldn't read all the comments because there were so many, but I think the most pure way to properly place labels on colors (including their warmness and coolness) would be to determine by actual experience which "opposite" color appears in the eye as an after image after staring at a large swatch of a color. Once you know which colors are truly opposite each other according to the human eye ball, I think it would be much easier to label "warm" and "cool" as well.


Mearced
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Thank you so much! I've always sensed that ultramarine was cooler but some color theory books said otherwise and I became so confused about blues in particular. This is so scientific....I love it! Would love to print your article and use it for classes in the future. Would that be alright?

Buddy
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You say: White light is comprised of different individual colour wavelengths....

The correct word is COMPOSED

White light is composed of different wave lengths.
Different wave lengths COMPRISE ( make up ) white light.

Your thing is color. My thing is language.

Jayne B
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Thank you for this article! I've been all over the internet confusing myself about why ultramarine was labelled warm and pthalo is cool. I even thought I labelled my colours wrong! But after double checking I started searching on google and found your post and it just makes so much sense. It is extremely clear to me that pthalo is definitely warmer. As you've mentioned above if I was going to use a warm blue as clothing or decoration I would definitely use pthalo over ultramarine. In fact I do have a warm skin tone and green leaning blues suit me tremendously more than violet leaning blues. Hmm your article is definitely interesting and I will be brining it up for colour theory when discussed next time.

Renee
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Thank you! I have always instinctively believed that Phthalo blues are warmer blues than Ultramarine Blues because they look warmer to me. I also learned this from wardrobe consulting. I have yellow undertones to my skin making my skin tones warm. I can wear blues leaning towards green but I cannot wear blues that lean towards violet. I neutral Cobalt blue color works too. Then I took a watercolor class and was being told that Blues that lean toward red is warm and blues that lean towards green is cool. I said, WHAT? NO! Phthalo blues and warm blues because they look warmer. It makes more sense now that you explained it.

Christopher Carnovale
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I've always instinctively considered Thalo Blue to be "warmer" than "Ultramarine" when describing the colour to people. Simply because it veers towards the green cast as you describe. Emotionally, it has a calming effect. Ultramarine has a more "violent" sharp impact, to me anyway. So nice to see your explanation ring true to the cause of a winning argument.

Gregory Perkins
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I commented four months ago and have read others who have commented. Regarding Buddy's topic of language in this discussion of "comprising versus composing" when talking about color attributes there is another idea of word choice. It might be that since many people refer to a shade of blue-green color as "aquamarine" then when the word "ultramarine" is used many might associate this with aqua when actually it is a bit more of a reddish-blue than a greenish blue. Furthermore the word marine connotes the ocean which people consider usually a more greenish blue than a redish blue. For these two reasons just the label ultramarine is sort of confusing and ambiguous. It always seemed like a misnomer (wrong use of words).

Christopher Carnovale
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Referencing a post made by G. Perkins, yes - "ultramarine" is something of a misnomer. But it's a name unlikely to be changed since it's been been a staple for generations. Actually, this shade is very similar to a "cobalt" blue, whereas in the print medium it resembles "reflex" blue. These colours veer into the red range of the spectrum. Curiously, there seems to be no set ASTM standard for mixing to arrive at this colour, brand to brand. I've seen variances to the degree of intensity over the years.

Mark
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So if red is the warmest color, how can a blue with red added to it be cooler?

sharon Hicks
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Mark - the short answer is this:

It is actually VIOLET which is added to blue to 'make' ultramarine.

The range between red and blue is a wide range of purple hues. The redder end of the purple range, as in Magenta etc, are considered 'warm purples'. The bluer end of the purple range, as in Violet etc, are considered 'cool purples'.

So in actual fact you are adding a cool purple to blue, which is going to make it cooler.



Jo Dee
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Sharon, I agree with you totally. It is obvious to my eyes that Ultramarine is a much cooler blue than Thalo. Thank you for all of your explanation and information. I will continue to believe that Ultramarine is the cooler of the two blues.

Gary
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This topic confuses me until my head spins. So I'll keep my comment short because I'm new to painting. My three cools are Ultramarine Blue, Yellow Ochre and Aliz Crimson. My three warms are Thalo Blue, Cad Red Light and Cad Yellow Light.

For the painting I'm on now, I substituted Permanent Rose for my warm red. Why? I don't know. To see what would happen, mostly.

Am I totally off the beam with my choices? Have I divided them up in a way that may hinder my progress?

Thanks!

Gary

Mearced
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Gary -
Aliz Crimson is a good choice for a cool red and cad red light is a good choice for a warm red or for even warmer - scarlet lake.
Yellow ochre would typically be considered a warm yellow and you could actually use your cad yellow light for a cool yellow.
Permanent rose is typically on the cool side - more pinkish (tends towards violet).
Hope this helps and that I haven't confused you more.
Mearced

gary
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Thanks Mearced - I think I will always be a bit confused - that will probably help me to continue experimenting. Thank you for clearing things up for me. Have a nice weekend! Gary

jonanaderson
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the problem is in language. what is cool, what is warm? Really the colours have no temperature at all of course. i think both sides of the argument here, wether describing ultramarine as warm or cool, still ultimately see it as a violet blue, and so in mixing will still get the same results. One thing worth mentioning is that ultramarine is a transparent oil colour made to replace the incredibly expensive lapis lazuli. that pigment was used to beautiful effect in renaissance painting in glazes often on the virgin mary, or other prominent, important figures. the sky, in the background obviously, was painted in cerulean blue. in these cases i would say the 'cool' and 'warm' labels dont really fit. after all as painters we manipulate paint, not light

Deborah Giles
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This is such a very interesting discussion. It has challenged some details about my conceptual understanding of colour (I was taught these things about 25 years ago) and has made me do a lot of thinking. To me, on a theoretical level, the warm blue/cool blue distinction is a very fine line because that part of the colour wheel is opposite the warmest colours from warm red to orange to warm yellow. And it almost seems like a question of preference which side of the line you put the cool or warm label because from the coolest part of the colour wheel, going both toward red and toward yellow is moving toward a warmer colour. In a way it's not surprising people disagree on whether a slightly green blue or a slightly purple blue is relatively cooler or warmer. Seems to also depend which part of the colour wheel you consider to be the warmest which is definitely a subjective thing. It seems like the warm/cool blue labels have somehow become flipped from what I was taught. To me it makes sense to think of mixing a cooler red (approaching a red-violet) with a blue that is approaching blue-violet (now hesitate to call that a "cool" blue since therein lies the confusion) to get a clear violet. Likewise I would think of mixing a blue leaning toward green with a yellow leaning toward green to get a clear green. And go from there accordingly if I want to get away from the nice clear colours. If I keep this in mind it doesn't really matter whether I call any blue warm or cool. Now, rather than being confused by whether a purple-ish blue or a green-ish blue is called warm or cool I will disregard those labels--as somebody else suggested in a comment or two. This is my simplistic theoretical framework for thinking about this. While there are lots of factors that impinge on how we conceptualize colour, for my purposes I prefer to keep it as simple as possible. In the end I guess it matters more what the colours do than what we call them. Thanks for the great article and thoughtful comments.

Linda
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This is looking have work very hard to write this post

Gin
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All labels are relative. When studying color theory many years ago, I agreed that yellow is intrinsically warmer than blue, which is very cool. Red, to my eye, did seem to be somewhere (though not middle) between yellow and blue concerning warmth/coolness. Therefore I agree with Mr. Brigg, who believes that red is not as warm as yellow. No wonder than that I find they phthalo blue to be very warm and ultramarine blue to be very cool. I find cobalt blue, by comparison with those other two blues, fairly neutral. Of course though, cobalt blue still appears cooler than any cad yellow, but seems yet warmer than a cool lemon yellow. Go figure. A blue warmer than a yellow! Is this a psychiatric distortion in my mind, or when you put those colors next to each other, do you see any problems with their relation of advance recession warmth/coolness? Thus we can see that the warm/cold ideology has faults. It appears that the cold/warm aesthetic concept is a psychological extension of how we relate to temperature, arguing why cool colors recede and warm colors advance. We need to advance our understanding of what we are truly talking about.

Frank Malowany
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The red, yellow and blues all have warms and cools.
I had the pleasure of studying under Julie Hanson, she has just published a great book (Fire and Light) that deals with warms and cools.

Gosha
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It's an interesting point of view. Personally color wheel makes much more color sense then linear representation of colors. As colors do transition from one another. Violet is a mix of red and blue, Therefore ultramarine is closer to red and a warm blue. I really rather base color theory on painting experience, which constitutes a form of science.
I'm not here to argue and make proofs just really disagree, inspire the fact that you made a really interesting case.
Warmly,
Gosha

Beth Crosley
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Thank you SOOOOOO much! This is exactly what I needed to know!

David Briggs
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Great to see this discussion still going and some thoughtful posts added! I rewrote my web page on current and historical usages of "warm" and "cool" hue terminology earlier this year - I hope I was fair to the many different viewpoints:
http://www.huevaluechroma.com/077.php

Lia
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Very interesting indeed. I stumbled upon this while writing a book on interior decoration. I use colour in my graphic design work, but always chose them on pure instinct. For the book, I decided to look up colour theory, and was puzzled by the common "greenish blue is cooler, purplish blue is warmer" idea which went completely against my instinct.

Your take is better, but I actually see both green and violet as warmer than blue. Every colour wheel seems to have a mid-green and a dark violet, so the violet recedes in comparison. But equalise the brightness and there's no difference. My take is that blue is the "ultimate" cool hue, orange the ultimate warm, and black/white/grey the ultimate neutral colours. The warmth or coolness of a colour relates to how close it is to these: blue/orange = warmth/coolness respectively, and the intensity of the effect relates to its distance from the nearest neutral.

Perhaps my instincts are wonky. Perhaps it's related to the earlier comment that the human eye doesn't understand blue: it's conceptually distant, so it looks visually distant. It would be interesting to know how other people see it, anyway.

Anonymous Guest
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Awesome job dude,keep it up

Kristina
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An artist I follow recommended Ultramarine Blue as a warm color, and I said "Wait, wut?", lol. I thought she mixed up what she wrote, so I did a google search on whether Ultramarine Blue is warm or cool. Funnily enough, apparently a lot of people have this question, since that was the first suggested search, lol. I'm so glad you wrote this, because visually, it makes zero sense to me that Ultramarine Blue is considered a warm blue. It just doesn't *look* warm to me, especially compared to other blues. Your explanation gave me some insight as to why that is. I'm glad to read the comments to, to be aware that there may be a warmer pigment in the paint that was used to give the Ultramarine Blue it's look. That can definitely get confusing with mixing, so it's good to be aware of that. But just looking at it from the tube? Nope, looks cool to me.

Kristina
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Also, I apologize for the formatting on my previous comment. I made paragraphs, but it seems it didn't "take".









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